Be an Entrepreneur the Disney Way with Mike Goldsby

Welcome to Brainfluence, where author and international keynote speaker, Roger Dooley, has weekly conversations with thought leaders and world-class experts. Every episode shows you how to improve your business with advice based on science or data.

Roger’s new book, FRICTION, is published by McGraw-Hill and releases May 17th. Dr. Robert Cialdini described the book as “blinding insight,” and Nobel winner, Dr. Richard Thaler, said reading FRICTION will arm any manager with a mental can of WD-40. To learn more or to pre-order, go to rogerdooley.com/friction.

Now, here’s Roger.

Roger Dooley:     Welcome to the Brainfluence podcast. I’m Roger Dooley. My guest this week is Michael Goldsby. He’s a professor of entrepreneurship and Executive Director of the Entrepreneurship Center in the Miller College of Business at Ball State University. He teaches Creativity, Innovation and Design, in the university’s undergrad and graduate programs in entrepreneurship. His research on entrepreneurship and fitness has been reported in many international media outlets, all the major networks, CNN, Associated Press, Runner’s World, even things like Prevention Magazine and Muscle and Fitness, where usually professors aren’t featured too often. His new book coauthored with Rob Matthews is Entrepreneurship the Disney Way. Welcome to the show, Mike.

Mike Goldsby:     Hi Roger, thanks for having me on.

Roger Dooley:     Great. Mike, all of our listeners may not be familiar with Ball State, but after living in northern Indiana for about 30 years before moving to Austin 9 years ago, I know it well. It’s one of Indiana’s state universities, and I always knew it for three well-regarded specialties. One is architecture, people come from all over to study architecture there. Another is communications were probably Ball State’s most famous graduate, David Letterman of talk show fame, has made quite a few contributions that enabled some really amazing faculty and facilities there.

And then the third specialty was entrepreneurship. And I’m curious how did Ball State become a center for entrepreneurship, Mike?

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, well actually it was one of the pioneering programs in the country. There was a gentleman who’s now at Indiana University, Dr. Donald F. Kuratko. And when Don was a young professor at Ball State, he really had an ambition to bring entrepreneurship education, not only to Ball State, but also to the country. So he wrote one of the seminal textbooks that I think it’s in its 10th edition now on entrepreneurship.

So we sort of had first move advantage. I think there were only five programs in the country, when Ball State started entrepreneurship. And much like telecommunications and architecture, we got in at a good time, and since then have grown in that tradition.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah, that’s great. And I think right there, there’s a lesson in entrepreneurship. If you can be early in something that’s going to be growing, you can establish your reputation without dealing with all the competition. Because of course now everybody wants to be known as the school of entrepreneurship, but there’s a lot of folks out there. So yeah, kudos to Ball State on being an early adopter.

Mike Goldsby:     Thank you. Yeah, I think now there’s, I’ve heard that the number up to about three and a half thousand schools pursuing entrepreneurship. So I think one of the first five really, as you said, was very much an entrepreneurial endeavor in its own right.

Roger Dooley:     Right. And actually this works even for the individual branding level because really what Ball State did was combine two fields of business education. Which there are a lot of people doing business education, but by combining that with the thought of entrepreneurship, they distinguish themselves. And that’s something that I’ve always talked about in past guests we’ve had on the show, authors like Dorie Clark and Mark Schaefer all emphasize that same thing.

If you can combine two things, and where not many other people have done that, you can develop a reputation early. So before we talk about what Disney can teach us about entrepreneurship, I’m curious, Mike, about the fitness work that you’ve done and has apparently gotten so much attention.

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, so well with Dr. Kuratko we did a study years ago, on just wondering, we actually it started up our own observations and academics. We noticed that some of the people who were the best scholars, were also the same people that we worked out with at conferences. So we saw these high performers in academics and being that we were scholars, we thought, I wonder if the same thing is the case in business. Do entrepreneurs who devote a lot of dedication and attention to working out and their health, are they also the ones that do well with their companies? And while we can’t prove that one causes the other necessarily, we have correlations, but clearly our takeaway was that investing time in working out was worth the time investment. Because as you know, entrepreneurs probably beyond money, they’re number one consideration’s where they spend their time.

So it’s a trade off if they work out. The question we had was, is that worth trading off time to workout, being away from the business? And it was a very strong, significant finding that yeah, those entrepreneurs that work out do tend to outperform the others. And the way we measured that was by looking at their goals, both internal and external. Did they hit their goals? In what they were hoping to achieve. And both internally and externally, entrepreneurs that worked out were significantly more likely to hit their goals. And even to get better performance in their financials, than those who did not.

Roger Dooley:     Well, I’m curious what your take is on that, Mike. In other words, I can think of two explanations. One is that these entrepreneurs who work out are healthier, maybe their cognitive abilities are a little bit better, they’re sharper, don’t suffer from fatigue to the same degree that other entrepreneurs might, or that they are simply more self disciplined. That they have the discipline to work out, which for many people is not necessarily the most pleasant activity. You sort of have to force yourself to do it. And that same self discipline ends up making them good business people too because they can buckle down when they have to. What’s your opinion on those two options, or is there a third option?

Mike Goldsby:     Oh, there’s also a third. Let me just say I agree with your first two. I agree 100% with your first two. As far as entrepreneurship, I think it’s a combination of two things that make a great entrepreneur. It’s somebody that has good ideas, but it’s also someone who executes. And execution is all discipline, right? And so I do believe that working out, it is a discipline building practice. Especially when most people are having to fight that inertia. And especially when our culture really doesn’t support people working out as much as you might think. Right?

I mean we have a big healthcare crisis in this country. And I think I’ve read that about 85 or 90% of that is due to behavioral decisions, which working out is one of those. So I think it does build discipline, but I think a third thing that it does is that, I know myself, I’m a very avid exerciser. I’ve done 25 marathons and 8 Boston Marathons, and I’ve done some Iron Man triathlons. And for me I think that when you’re out there working out, whether it’s in the gym or on the bike or swimming or whatever you do, it’s that time away from work where your mind gets a chance to incubate, right?

So it’s in those moments where ideas can float to the surface. That may be when you’re consumed with something like at work, it’s not really, the subconscious doesn’t have a chance to really bring those ideas forward. You’re not really relaxing your mind enough. And I think related to that, I think working out, when you think about it, when you’re in a good steady workout, you’re breathing hard, you’re focusing on something, you’re in a state of flow. I think that’s also a form of meditation. So I oftentimes say when I’m running or I’m riding my bike, I call it moving meditation. That’s also good psychologically.

And related to that, I saw a study recently that said that if you’re 50 years old and you work out regularly, you have the cognitive ability of someone 30 years old. And so that’s got to help, I would think, entrepreneurs as well.

Roger Dooley:     Right. Well, actually anybody in business, that’s a really great takeaway and one that I wasn’t expecting from this conversation, but it’s a really valuable lesson I think for all of our listeners.

Now, jumping onto the topic of Walt Disney, very few business leaders have attracted as many authors and scholars as Walt Disney. He, Steve Jobs, and maybe a few others seem to have this combination of creativity, big picture vision, and the ability to build a company that can actually execute. What attracted you to the company and the man?

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, it was actually a later in life attraction. And I came up … after you write a book, you’re working towards a deadline and you’re really trying to deliver what you promised the publisher, and once I delivered the book with Rob Matthews and we met our deadline, I started kind of having a whole time to relax and reflect and read up on other things I may have missed in writing about Walt Disney. I think I came later to life with Walt Disney because I was a kid of the ’70s. And if you think about it, it was the post Walt Disney era, and they weren’t really putting out the classic Walt Disney movies.

And so I grew up with Star Wars and shows like that, that I was really enjoying. And Disney really wasn’t much of a presence in my life when I was a young kid. And so having not really been that involved or had an interest in Disney, I was at an academic conference in 2008. And this is shortly after Bob Iger had taken over from Michael Eisner and Disney was sort of had purchased Pixar and they were, they were starting to grow again. They were started to build on Eisner’s foundation.

And I was at a conference in Anaheim. I was down the road and I got up one day and I found out that my flight back to Indiana was canceled. It was going to be a red eye. And I actually had a whole day just to kill before I flew back. So I thought, well, I haven’t been to Disneyland since I was 10 years old. I’ll walk down the street and just check it out. And as I’m walking around this Disneyland, it’s much different than the one I remembered when I was 10, I just thought there was something special going on there. I’d never seen anything like it.

And I remember I was sitting on the center hub on a bench in front of the castle, and there’s this iconic Walt Disney and Mickey Mouse statute where they’re holding hands. It’s called the Partners statue. And I was sitting there looking at that, and I was watching everybody, and I was thinking about the day that I had spent there, and I thought, I need to know more about this guy. I want to know more about how this got built.

And I started reading up on Walt Disney. I started reading up on the company, and the more I read on it, the more fascinated I got. I thought, wow, if you understand what makes Walt Disney and the company so successful, you probably have a pretty good roadmap for just about any company. And the further I’ve gotten into studying Disney, and the more I’ve gotten to know people at the company, the more I’m convinced that that is the case.

Roger Dooley:     Right. Well, he’s a great, he the man is a great topic, and the company itself is too, because they seem to have survived the Walt, to no Walt transition, it may take a little while, but reasonably well compared to other companies that might have simply fallen apart. Now, one thing that story that I found in the book that I certainly didn’t know about, and I’m guessing a lot of people didn’t, was that very early in Walt Disney’s career as an entrepreneur and animator, he had his work and his people essentially stolen from him, and had to make the decision to start over from scratch. What happened there?

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, that’s a great story. So he had struggled in Kansas City when he was a young man learning the craft of animation. And it’s what I call his artist years. He’s learning what goes into animation. And as a business person on his own, he didn’t do so well and he went bankrupt. And as it so happens, his uncle and his brother Roy were living out in Hollywood. His brother Roy was actually convalescing at a VA hospital due to an illness he picked up when he was in the Navy. And he’s convalescing out at VA hospital and Walt decides, well, I’ve got nothing going on in here in Kansas City. And he moves out to Hollywood to try to get into the movies where his family’s living.

Roger Dooley:     Probably a better location than Kansas City.

Mike Goldsby:     What’s that?

Roger Dooley:     Probably a better location than Kansas City.

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, exactly. Totally a better location. And I’d like to point out, when you think about moments in time, moments in history, what would have happened if something had been different? A real big difference for Walt Disney and his success between Kansas City and Hollywood is Roy Disney, his brother. Roy was not involved in Kansas City, but Roy did have eight years banking experience in Kansas City before he went into the Navy.

So imagine this, if Roy Disney had not gotten sick and needed to go out west where the air was a little bit drier and warmer than Kansas City, and he wasn’t there to help build the company in Hollywood, Roy Disney probably would have been a banker in Kansas City. And who knows what Walt Disney would have done without his big brother. It’s just an amazing set of circumstances that that all came together in Hollywood.

But to your question about the animators getting stolen away, Roy and Walt eventually built Walt Disney or the Disney Brother’s Studio up to a point, where they get a contract with, I believe it was Universal to make cartoons called Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. And it gave them a chance if Oswald was successful, it gave them a chance to get established in the animation business. And Walt was feeling pretty good about things. And it was getting to a point where there was going to be a renegotiation, the contract was going to be fulfilled, and they were going to come up with a new contract.

And as it happened, one of the business partners that he was involved with, it was kind of the middle person between Walt and Universal, decided that looking around, he said, this Walt Disney guy really doesn’t do too much drawing. He really doesn’t do much on the pictures. If we were just to hire away the talent and cut this middle person out, we could all make a lot more money on this.

And so they tried to give Walt a deal that was not to his liking. And Walt found out that it was almost a take it or leave decision because Walt and Roy did not own the rights to Oswald, Universal did. And so they were … they basically had to make a decision, do we take a worse deal but have the security of working on pictures on Oswald, that we have experience with and we can keep making some money, or do we say this isn’t the way we want to work and start over? And they decided to start over.

And in that, what I like to talk about a lot in the book, is when you really dig into Walt Disney’s story, when these people were taken away from him from Universal and by a guy named Charles Mense, these animators, who he employed by the way, he brought in, he trained them, he brought them along, they behind his back agreed to go to Universal and continue to make Oswald pictures.

And it is a moment of betrayal that really, really stung Walt. And his brother Roy and some other ones were kind of warning Walt that something might be up. Walt was the naive optimist. And it was moments like that that really sharpened his business acumen at a very young age. He was in his early twenties when this happened.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah, I can see where, fool me once and you’re not going to fool me again. And so that’s, it’s a good lesson though. And he probably at that moment didn’t … when he was up to that point, he didn’t realize, that he was actually vulnerable to being cut out of the picture. Or being handed a deal that was not all that beneficial to him.

So something important, another important takeaway there I think is to make sure that you’ve got your ducks in a row and that you end up not being an apparently expendable middleman. Now as it turns out, he wasn’t that expendable and had he taken the deal perhaps now we’d all be wearing rabbit ears instead of mouse ears. But it’s really a great story.

Mike Goldsby:     It is. And now this story is how Mickey Mouse happened. Because Mickey Mouse was a new character that Walt and his right hand animator, Ub Iwerks. By the way, Ub was a phenomenal genius of an animator, and he did stay with Walt and Roy. And I think I mention in the book that at one point Ub Iwerks was animating at the rate of about 700 frames a day. I mean he was pretty much drawing these early Mickey Mouse cartoons by himself, and then Walt and Roy, and a few others that they brought along, were able to kind of put it all together and make it work. But it was a decision that they needed a new character. And it had it not been for that betrayal, it’s very unlikely we’d have Mickey Mouse today.

Roger Dooley:     Another interesting, another weird sort of serendipity thing. And probably lesson too, I know I’ve experienced, you probably have too Mike, is that sometimes one door closes on you and another opens. And often it seems kind of like sort of a saccharine way of making people feel good, but I think that probably most of us can trace some success in our life back to something that didn’t work out, and put us in that direction.

Mike Goldsby:     I agree 100%. One of the lessons that I mention in the book is that really good entrepreneurs are always looking for the upside to any situation. I mean that’s the discipline, that’s the execution, that’s the perseverance. It’s usually in almost any situation, the great ones always find that upside. You think about Steve Jobs, there’s so many similarities between Steve Jobs. And by the way Jobs, his hero was Walt Disney. That’s who he sort of idolized. And you see sort of similarities.

When jobs was basically kicked out of Apple, the company he co-founded, he went around really trying in an existential search, figuring out what he was going to do next. And had he not left Apple when he did and have that soul searching, many of the things that Apple later used from that next computer company that he built, may not have been there to build the next foundation of what we use today.

Roger Dooley:     Well and perhaps Pixar wouldn’t exist too which ended up pretty much coming full circle back to Disney.

Mike Goldsby:     Exactly. Yeah. When Jobs died, I think he was the largest shareholder of Walt Disney stock.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah. You bring up Jobs, and I’m curious, today I think if you talk to people about Steve Jobs there’s sort of a nuanced impression that yes, he was a creative genius. He had an uncanny ability to determine what customers might want, and perhaps how to get there from a technical standpoint at least at the top level, even if other people were doing the work. Also, he was not necessarily a pleasant guy to work with, and he may have been a bit of a jerk. I’m curious, how does that compare with Walt himself because he too had some … he was a pretty driven guy.

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah. Yeah. There are similarities. And there are different accounts about Walt. And much like Jobs, if you think about like say Johnny Ive, the chief designer at Apple, he talks glowingly of Steve Jobs. And then others who may work in different areas don’t speak so well of Steve Jobs, and I think the same was the case with Disney. There were people that worked with him for a long time and there were people that worked there for awhile, and then left and went off and did their own thing.

And I really think that the common element in all this, I really got into the life of Walt Disney and I’ve read a lot on Steve Jobs, is that they put so much of themselves, and they built these companies, and they gave everything to the products, and to the customer and to the company. And I think they felt like what they expected from the people that worked there was, can’t you at least give me this small amount that I’m expecting?

Now to the people working for the company they’re maybe thinking, well you get so much, you know at your company and you get all the fame, but on their end to Walt Disney and Steve Jobs credit, they were very much had that artist sensibility of suffering for their art. And they just couldn’t understand why if they were putting their whole life into these companies, why people for 8 to 12 hours a day couldn’t at least give their best effort.

I just think it was a feeling of people not understanding just what they were sacrificing. And Walt Disney, not only did he get betrayed by his animators early in his career, when he built the state of the art studio that’s still in use today by the Walt Disney Company in Burbank, right before World War II, his animators go on strike. And he had tried to build them the best campus, the best corporate headquarters to work in, in the country. It was basically like a university setting. It was way ahead of its time.

He thought about the lighting, he thought about recreation, he thought about food, all these small details that make a good working environment. And many of the animators said, well this Walt guy seems to be getting all the money and we’re just getting paid these rates. And it was a time of labor movements. And they went on strike. And that may have been a thing that hurt Walt Disney personally more than the Oswald situation. Because these were his people that he hired and he thought he was taking good care of them. He tried to provide this wonderful place to work. And when he really needed them, when he really needed them to make some movies, they put production on hold basically.

And then World War II hits and it was a really, really hard time for Walt Disney. It’s amazing. Walt actually had some nervous breakdowns, where he’d have to go away for awhile and recover. So I think when you think about the personal stories of Walt Disney, the personal story of Steve Jobs, and just the emotional and even the physical strain of trying to build those companies, I think from their perspective they’re looking at people working on a small part of the company going, can’t you give me your best on at least this little part?

I think that’s kind of a result of many, many hours lot of stress, a lot of strain. And keep in mind carrying so much of the future of everyone connected to that company. Stock holders, employees, management team, the future of the company on their backs, I think that’s a lot to bear.

So one of the reasons I guess I’m doing this exercise studies and things like that is, stress, the stress these gentleman must have been under is something that probably very few of us would understand.

Roger Dooley:     Well I think too, you know, a driven entrepreneur has a different concept of work life balance than somebody who is a sort of a meer cog in the whole works. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just if your life is your business and if you’re super motivated and excited about it, and that’s, what you think about when you wake up in the morning, and you can’t stop thinking about until you go to bed at night, it may be a little bit harder to empathize with somebody who just basically wants to come into a good job, get paid and go home to the kids.

So I think probably many entrepreneurs suffer from that occasionally. And except for those have really sort of either are in that position themselves where they are aggressively trying to create their own work life balance, or at least have that empathy. But I think it’s an easy trap to fall into.

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, I think it is. And Roger you’re an expert on neural science. And I think that … I’ve seen some studies that said that some of these iconic entrepreneurs may have exhibited signs of Hypomania, right? I mean they’re, they’re kind of, I think anyone has entrepreneurial potential. But to build something legendary, it kind of takes a different wiring. I think those people are wired differently. They are obsessive, they’ve got high energy, they’re driven, they’re just mono maniacally focused on what they want do.

However, what’s fascinating about these people is once they conquer one thing, much like Walt Disney and Steve Jobs, they both did this. Whenever they conquered one thing, they were always asking the question, what’s next? And Disney was famous for saying he didn’t like to make sequels. You would not have seen, probably have not have seen a Car 2, and a Cars 3 under Walt Disney, because he would have been thinking about a whole different project to work on. But that was Walt.

Now what’s interesting is both Apple and the Walt Disney Company have grown into more modern corporations now over time because they were able to address those personnel issues, those HR issues, those infrastructure issues, that may be take into account that not everyone’s going to be wired like Walt, or wired like Steve. And they can kind of mature into a different, almost a different, more grown up version of the companies than when the iconic founding entrepreneurs are walking around.

Getting things done, a lot of times through sheer willpower, and a lot of times through sheer reputation. I mean Steve Jobs could go to Corning Glass and get the CEO to make him Gorilla Glass at rates that people didn’t think was possible because he was Steve Jobs. And Walt Disney was the same way. So yeah, these iconic entrepreneurs are wired a certain way. And it’s much like, I always say it’s a much like a great athlete.

You see these great professional basketball players that try to transition to being coaches. And they wonder, why the heck can’t these players play like me? And it’s like, well, come on, you were pretty darn special. Not everyone can do it just through sheer … it’s not just sheer effort, there’s a little bit of talent there.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah, that’s a good analogy. Like a few months ago I had John Padgett on the show. He headed up Disney’s MagicBands project, and now he’s at Carnival Corp working on rolling out their Ocean Medallion. One insight that he offered, the didn’t seem obvious at first, was that the big win for the MagicBands was to let guests see more and do more in the same amount of time. It seemed like the old approach at least to see characterized, was if things seem to be slowing down, if customers weren’t quite as excited about the experience, well you build a big new attraction to create that excitement.

But they realized that there was already too much to do for anybody to experience in a day or two days or three days. And so the focus here was on saying, okay, well how can we help people accomplish more in that time and see more, do more and do more? And along the way too, actually spend more. But people would rather be even spending money I think than standing in lines and such. How well do you think that’s succeeding at this point?

Mike Goldsby:     I think it’s a huge success. And I think it’s only going to get better as they learn how to use the data that they’re getting from using the MagicBands. I think they’ll use that data to improve traffic flow, to improve the guest experience. I know that when I had spoken to the executives at Disney, when I was working on the research or writing of the book, they would tell me that today’s guest, as you said, doesn’t want to wait in line. So you’ll see that they’ve redesigned a lot of the queues to be areas that are interactive.

Or like if you look at the new Fantasyland that was built at the Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World, they actually had these indoor waiting areas where you’re sort of called, almost like being at a restaurant, when it’s your turn to go ride the ride. Instead of having to wait in a queue back and forth for hours in the sun. So that’s good. Also gives the customer information to at least give their best shot at optimizing their schedules. So maybe they can pick the times to ride those rides where the lines won’t be as bad.

And so I think that’s all going to be making for a better guest experience. But I think also it’s, keep in mind, Disney spent about a billion dollars on that technology. It’s a huge investment. I think what’s going to happen is they’ll continue to improve on it, much like they’ve done on other theme park innovations, and so I think the best is yet to come. One of the things that I always find I found fascinating about Walt Disney World, and I’ve always said if you understand what makes it work, 42 square mile park, you should have to make just about anything work. Because people spend so much money there and they keep coming back. At this huge operation to me it gives all of us hope that we can run our little operations well too.

And the way they do that is they truly track every second of the day, every square inch of the property. Customer visits to the point where they can actually provide deals to people at different parts of the country, different parts of the world, to different parts of the year, so that when the park might be slower they can get more people from say Brazil up, visit the parks. That’s good for the bottom line, but also they can try to spread out the crowd’s a little bit. So that is a part of optimizing the customer experience. And I think a lot of that is coming for the MagicBands technologies.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah. One quick last question. I’ve always been curious, I sort of know the stock answer I guess, but I’ve always wondered why Disney has not decorated say a separately branded subsidiary for gambling. I mean they totally get theme development, operating resorts, great customer experience. And it seems like if they went to Las Vegas or Macau, they could really crush it. Instead they don’t even put casinos on their cruise ships, which is a huge profit center on other cruise lines. Do you ever see that happening in any way?

Mike Goldsby:     I would be very doubtful if they ever get involved in anything around gambling. Because they used to have a thing called, it was a more of an adult area at Walt Disney World down at Disney. What was downtown Disney, I think it was called Paradise Island.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah, I recall that. Something like that.

Mike Goldsby:     Something like that. Yeah. I forget the exact name, but essentially it was more nightclubs and they made, it was actually profitable. It brought in a lot of people. And they made a decision saying, it goes against our strategy. It doesn’t fit our brand. There might be, there were some fights and there was some police were coming down there sometimes to try … having to get involved. And they said, you know, this is profitable, people like it, but it just doesn’t fit our brand.

So they’ll oftentimes say that they make strategic decisions ahead of profitable decisions sometimes in protecting the brand. Because for Disney, the brand is everything. And they will do absolutely nothing that jeopardizes the brand that they’ve worked almost since 1923, what is that, almost 80 some years?

Roger Dooley:     Oh yeah. Closing in on 100 almost.

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, right. Yeah. 90 some years. Exactly. They will do nothing to jeopardize that and they will do nothing to jeopardize the name of Walt Disney himself. I mean, Walt was about family entertainment. Disney still sticks to that. And that’s to their credit, is one of the reasons that they’re great, they know what they do well and they know the businesses that they need to be in and they’ll leave those other businesses to others.

Roger Dooley:     Right. Well that’s I think protecting the brand is a really important message. It’s often, when we’re presented with opportunities that seem profitable, but they might not really fit the brand. So great lesson there. Let me remind our audience that we’re speaking with Michael Goldsby, coauthor of the book Entrepreneurship, the Disney Way. Mike, how can people find you?

Mike Goldsby:     Yeah, you can find me and my coauthor Rod Matthews at: www.elprofile.com. So that’s E-L-P-R-O-F-I-l-E dot com. And on that website you’ll see that we’ve developed a system called Mind2Motivation, M2M. It’s our system of how to get people to take their ideas and get momentum going because everyone gets excited about momentum, or their ideas. And so you’ll see our services there. And also you can also find our instrument that we use in the book that helps you find out if your a artist, scientist, builder or evangelist when it comes to being an entrepreneur.

Roger Dooley:     Great. Well we will link there and to any other resources we spoke about on the show notes page at: rogerdooley.com/podcast. And we’ll have a text version of our conversation there too. Mike, Thanks for being on the show.

Mike Goldsby:     I enjoyed it Roger. Thanks for inviting me.

Thank you for tuning into this episode of Brainfluence.

To find more episodes like this one, and to access all of Roger’s online writing and resources. The best starting point is rogerdooley.com. And remember Roger’s new book, FRICTION releases May 17th. Bestselling author Dan pink calls it “an important read” and Wharton professor Dr. Jonah Berger said, “you’ll understand friction’s power and how to harness it.”

For more info or to pre-order, go to rogerdooley.com/friction.