BJ Fogg – Design with Behavioral Science

Welcome to Brainfluence, where author and international keynote speaker Roger Dooley has weekly conversations with thought leaders and world class experts. Every episode shows you how to improve your business with advice based on science or data.

Roger’s new book, Friction, is published by McGraw Hill and is now available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and bookstores everywhere. Dr. Robert Cialdini described the book as, “Blinding insight,” and Nobel winner Dr. Richard Claimer said, “Reading Friction will arm any manager with a mental can of WD40.”

To learn more, go to RogerDooley.com/Friction, or just visit the book seller of your choice.

Now, here’s Roger.

Roger Dooley:     Welcome to The Brainfluence Podcast. I am Roger Dooley. I hope your summer is going really well. I’ve been busy promoting my new book, Friction, so I haven’t spent as much time enjoying the awesome summer as I might have otherwise.

But, speaking of Friction, thanks to those of you who have read the book and posted a review on Amazon or Goodreads. I read all of those reviews.

I’m also interested in any private feedback or comments. If you have the book, what did you find useful? What would you like to leave out or hear more about? And if you don’t have the book yet, I’m curious as to what’s holding you back. Regardless, just drop me a note at rogerdooley.com.

This week, we’re doing something a little bit uncommon for us. We’re replaying one of our best-received episodes in the last year, our conversation with BJ Fogg about behavior design.

BJ is a super smart guy whose work underlies Nir Eyal’s Hooked model, my Persuasion Slide, and a lot of thinking about friction. His ideas are also what have helped products like Instagram and many others get traction while apparently similar apps never caught on.

If you didn’t hear this one when it first aired, don’t miss it now. Even if you did, it’s worth another listen.

By the way, BJ has a new book in the works, Tiny Habits. It won’t be released until December, but we’ve linked to its Amazon listing in case you want to check it out or perhaps pre-order. That, BJ’s contact info, and other details are on the show notes page at rogerdooley.com/podcasts.

We’ll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, enjoy this conversation with BJ Fogg.

To anyone who reads my blog or has seen me speak or has read my persuasion slide book, today’s guest will be a familiar name. BJ Fogg wrote Persuasive Technology in 2002, the first book to look at how technology might be used to change behavior. About the same time, he and his colleagues published a study of web credibility that looked at how people decided if they could trust a website. Even today, most of those factors seem fresh and relevant. In 2009 he introduced the Fogg Behavior Model, a deceptively simple explanation of the key factors needed to change somebody’s behavior, whether it’s forming a habit or getting somebody to place an e-commerce order. That model underlies Nir Eyal’s hook model and my own persuasion slide.

BJ’s students and others who have read his work have gone on to great success by applying his ideas including one of the founders of Instagram. Today BJ heads up the behavior design lab at Stanford and focuses on developing beneficial habits and creating positive change in organizations. Welcome to the show, BJ.

BJ Fogg:             Hey, Roger, thanks for having me.

Roger Dooley:     Great. You know, BJ, I wonder, sometimes life is a thing of happenstance. Stanford is pretty much the epicenter of Silicon Valley and digital innovation. Do you think if you had been at, say, Northwestern, your ideas would have gotten such rapid application? Not that you would have gone there. I hear Lake Michigan surfing isn’t all that good especially when it’s frozen.

BJ Fogg:             Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I’m not sure they would have let me study what I wanted to study elsewhere. I mean, I don’t know that for sure, but there was a specific research lab at Stanford that was a good match for me to look at the overlap of persuasion and technology and it extended, it broadened the scope of that lab but it did it in a really good way. So it was just a really good fit for me to go there and do my doctoral work and do experimental, scientific experiments about computers and looking at the potential to influence attitudes and behaviors.

Roger Dooley:     Yep. So, today, you’re working in behavior design. How has that evolved over time? Because you started off in persuasive technology. How would you define behavior design and how does that relate to what you worked on earlier?

BJ Fogg:             Yeah, so thanks. Today I don’t consider my research to be persuasive technology. It really has nothing to do with technology. I call it behavior design and the name of my lab at Stanford now is the behavior design lab, so it’s not the same thing as persuasive technology but I guess in some ways it was an evolution of my interests, so I started looking at doing scientific experiments around computers and their potential to influence. IN 1993, you know, wrote the book on persuasive technology after doing lots of research and so on, and then in the lab we did a little more work with persuasive technology looking at web credibility like you mentioned and mobile persuasion and things like that, but eventually my interest, and I didn’t realize this at the time. It was probably about 2009 or 2010, my interests shifted toward understanding this human behavior in general, and I think my frustration at the time was, “Wow, there’s people that can create technology but they’re not doing it in a way that actually impacts, that has an effect. They don’t understand human psychology. They don’t understand how human behavior works.”

So I think it was out of that frustration of realizing that those people creating products and services, they didn’t lack technology, they lacked the psychological insights. So I’d shifted my work that direction. When we did a project from my lab called the behavior wizard, that, I think, I can look back now and see that was very clearly not at all about technology. It was helping people understand how behavior works more fundamentally and then I developed … So it was actually 2007, developed what I call the Fogg Behavior Model. Also developed Behavior Grid which is like the periodic table of behavior, behavior types, and then developed other models and other methods.

When I say “behavior design,” I mean a set of models that I have created … The Fogg Behavior Model, there’s an engagement model and so on. Choice model, and then there’s a set of methods, and methods are things you use for design, and those two things work together. I called those two things together, I called behavior design.

Roger Dooley:     This is not just in the digital world, right, BJ?

BJ Fogg:             Well, yeah, not at all. I mean, a lot of the business products and services are digital but the models and methods really have nothing to do with digital necessarily, and so that’s why it’s not about persuasive technology. The other difference is it’s not about persuasion either. Behavior design … I have three maxims in behavior design. As I see the maxim, it’s like this overriding principle. Maxim number one is “help people do what they already want to do.” That’s pretty different than how most people think about persuasion, and that … maybe the most important thing I can help innovators understand, that you need to create products and services that help people do what they already want to do. If you don’t do that, for most types of products and services, you will fail.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah. I think often then, you can correct me, BJ, but I’ve figured out a great way to make money. So I’ve got this startup company going. Now I just need to persuade people to use this thing, without necessarily focusing on whether that’s best for them. What you’re saying reminds me a lot of this thing that regular listeners will have heard once or twice before, but when Zig Ziglar, the famous sales guru, was talking about the sales process, people said, “Aren’t you being manipulative? Is it ethical to have 20 ways to close a customer?” Where we’ve got the presumptive close and all these different techniques that sound manipulative, and used by the wrong people or in the wrong way could be, but his guiding principle sounds a lot like yours, which is, “What you should be doing is getting your customer to a better place.”

So if your customer really needs transportation, and the car that you’re selling that person will help them and it is the right thing for them. It’s not too much for them to afford. It’s not unreliable, then by completing that process, you’re doing them a favor. You’re helping them, but often as we know with the classic used car salesman example, it’s often misused and more often than not it’s just a case of taking advantage of the other person. I draw a parallel there.

BJ Fogg:             Well, and here’s how I teach it now. So, two days … I run a two day training for professional people, people creating products and services called boot camps, and I talk about persuasion in three sentences, and I don’t do it all the time because it’s not that important, but the one time I think you do want to persuade customers, patients, clients, what have you is that you have the best product or service for achieving what they already want to do. So there’s a big difference there. You’re not persuading them that they want to share photos. You’re persuading them that Instagram is the best way to share photos. The persuasion does fit there, for sure, but you’re not … People that don’t want to eat healthier, you’re not trying to persuade them to eat healthier and so on because those kinds of products and services do not work.The only thing that works in the long term is helping people do what they already want to do, and yeah, there’s a role for persuasion if they don’t see your product or service as a way of getting there. Then yeah, it’s got to be presented in a way that helps them understand your product and service.

Roger Dooley:     So, BJ, your behavior model underlies a lot of your work and the work of other people. Unfortunately we don’t have the visual option here on this podcast, but can you describe the three elements of that for our listeners?

BJ Fogg:             Yeah. So I call it the Fogg Behavior Model. Basically you can write it out like an equation, but it’s not strictly like a mathematical equation. So you’d write it out as B equals M, A and P, and what that means is behavior happens when these three things come together at the same time. There’s motivation to do the behavior, there’s ability to do the behavior. It can’t be impossible, and then there’s a prompt, and the prompt is the cue or the call to action. It’s the thing that I used to call trigger, but about a year ago I decided to just make the big leap and say, “You know what? I’m not gonna call it trigger anymore, it’s a prompt.” So it’s those three things.

When you are prompted to do something that you want to do and you can do, that’s when the behavior happens. If you’re missing any one of those elements … If you’re not prompted, you don’t do it. If you don’t have the ability, you can’t do it. You don’t do it even if you’re prompted, and if you don’t want to do it, you don’t do it. So the model, it’s just four letters, but it’s a … I think it’s like solving a riddle that has never been solved before. Once you see the answer, it’s like, “Boom, there it is. Of course it’s that.” But it didn’t get solved until 2007. So that’s how behavior works. It’s for all types of behavior, all culture, all ages, and so I want to say it’s a universal model for human behavior.

Roger Dooley:     Mm-hmm (affirmative). I totally agree with you, and once you see it, you say, “Well, yeah, of course that’s how it works.” I’m curious, BJ, have there been any studies that tried to either quantify the variables or validate it in some way? Certainly if you look in the commercial experiments like conversion optimizers, they can run those tests, say, “Okay, we can make it easier or we can motivate people with a bigger discount,” but I’m wondering what … if somebody says, “Well, does this make sense but has there been proof of that?” What would you say?

BJ Fogg:             Let me break it down, thanks. There’s two different directions I can go here, but absolutely yes. One of these days I will publish something called behavior theory which draws on my model, but you’ll see the connection here. There’s basically three propositions in theory. One is the lower the motivation, the less likely somebody is to do a behavior. So that would be something you could test. There are many experiments and many just every day experiences out there that says, “Oh, the lower somebody’s motivation, the less likely they are to do a behavior.” You could flip it around as well and say, “The higher the motivation, they more likely they are to do the behavior.” That’s number one. Number two, let’s go to the ability component. The harder a behavior, the less likely they are to do it. In fact, if it’s so hard that it’s impossible, they won’t do it no matter what the motivation is. So you’re just looking at the ability component alone, and then the third one is propositions about prompt.

This one’s phrased a little different. It says new behavior happens without a prompt. In other words, there has to be something, whether it comes from inside somebody or a post-it note or a notification or a friend reminding them, there’s always something that says, “Do this behavior now,” and without the prompt, the behavior won’t happen. So those would be the three propositions behind the model, and if you could see the graphical version of the model, there’s a curved line that I call the action line. That curved line holds together the first two statements at the same time. The lower the motivation, the less likely people are to do it and the harder it is, the less likely people are to do the behavior, because there’s less area under the curve, so I know listeners probably haven’t seen the graphical version but you could look at that.

Those are the three assertions in the model. Many experiments, not necessarily done by me, but for a long, long time that shows those things are true.

Roger Dooley:     That seems fair enough and again, there’s so much commercial work too that when you compare a lot of academic research and a lot of academic research, of course, is great and groundbreaking, but you look at a study that was done with 50 MIT undergrads as subjects and then one that was done with 200,000 Amazon customers, one probably is a little bit more robust than the other. That makes a huge amount of sense. I know that a lot of our listeners work with digital content, websites, apps and so on. It’s been more than 15 years, I guess, since the web credibility guidelines were published. How well have those held up? Maybe you could give an example of a few that still are pretty valid or even that aren’t, since probably most folks couldn’t recite those by heart.

BJ Fogg:             Yeah, so in my lab at Stanford in probably 2001 we did this massive study on what makes people believe or not believe what they find on the web, which to me was a really important question at the time. We did a series of experiments and research and surveys and so on, and from that, we derived seven conclusions, I guess. I don’t remember all of them, but the one that I was sad at at the time, and I’m still kind of sad about is if the website looks good, people are more likely to believe the information. In other words, the surface feature, the looking good aspect, the design of the website was the biggest driver of whether somebody believed it or not. When I saw that in the data, I was like, “That is not reading what I wanted to find,” because you want to believe that humans are looking beyond the surface and they’re actually thinking about the content or about the source or what it turns out, and then once I got over that disappointment, I was like, “You know what? That’s how it works in the real world. That’s how it’s worked forever,” where the better looking humans have more ability to influence.

Just look at politicians and judge the average look of the politicians to somebody who’s not. They trade off of the fact that they’re better looking than average and therefore people believe them more and are more influenced by them. It was sad to see that’s how web was going. Fast forward to today, we really wrapped up the web credibility work in about 2003. I published a theory about how credibility judgments are made around the web … actually, credibility in general, I call it prominence interpretation theory, and then I felt like the project was done. It was like, “Okay, here’s how people make credibility evaluations. Boom, problem … At least this question is answered and let’s move on.” So I moved on to other work.

So I haven’t really gone back and I couldn’t even tell you what the seven key findings or conclusions were, but that’s one that still sticks in my mind, is if it looks good, people believe it. Oh wow, really?

Roger Dooley:     It works that way in real life. Attractive people get promoted more. There’s probably even some evolutionary psychology thing there were at least as far as humans are concerned, that more attractive person is perhaps a better mate or has better genes or something, but whether that translates to websites, who knows, but I think also too, if you’re looking at cars, do you want the shiny new car or the one that looks kind of sketchy? It may be disappointing that a quality website that looks bad isn’t as well trusted, but it’s probably human nature. I think some of the other things … I think having identifiable humans, in other words like having a picture of the owner or humans on the website adds credibility which I think is still very valid.

Humans haven’t changed that much and websites have changed somewhat over the years, but human nature hasn’t changed. So I think that any of our listeners who are not familiar with web credibility guidelines, just google that phrase and you’ll find them. I think that you’ll see that most of them are just about equally valid today. I don’t remember if speed is one. In other words, how fast the website renders, but it seems subsequent research has shown that to be pretty true.

BJ Fogg:             Yeah. I think we took the different questions and there was an index we created out of it. It had to do with functionality. Like the technical aspects. I think … I don’t remember specifically how … because websites are pretty fast, even back then for the kinds of things we were doing. That’s where it would’ve got rolled into that index, that measure, composite measure.

Roger Dooley:     Okay, well we could talk about that forever, BJ, but I want to move on to the real world, the physical world and habits in particular. One of your initiatives is the Tiny Habits Program. Why don’t you explain what that is and how it relates to behavior model.

BJ Fogg:             Yeah, well I’ll start with this. Tiny Habits was this really lucky accident that happened six or seven years ago. Fast forward to today. It’s a terrific way to form habits. We train and certify coaches and thousands and thousands of people have used the method to change their life. I’ve personally coached 40,000 people in Tiny Habits personally through email, individually, and so rewind. After I discovered what I call the Fogg Behavior Model … I don’t feel like I created it. I uncovered this thing that has always been there, just never seen. I looked at my own behavior model and I saw on the bottom right hand corner this place on the graph, that if something is really easy to do, if a behavior is really easy to do, you don’t need much motivation to do it. Motivation could be high or medium or even low, and I was like, “Oh, that’s really interesting. So that means I don’t have to sustain motivation or worry about boosting motivation if the behavior or the habit is really, really easy to do.”

So I started toying around in my own mind what that idea. I was like, “Okay, yeah, I wanted to be consistent flossing. Haven’t been that consistent. Let’s not floss all my teeth. Let’s make it really easy to do and let’s just floss one tooth. Make it easier. Oh, and on top of that, I’m gonna go figure out what kind of floss is the easiest to use.” So I bought like 12 or 15 types of floss and brought them home and tried and tried, where I found one that was a lot easier to use than what I’d been doing.

Roger Dooley:     You’re a true researcher.

BJ Fogg:             Right? I’m always goofing around, testing my own behavior. So, what I was able to do … There’s more to the method but I was able to wire in a flossing habit very easily. Like wow, and then the behavior expands. The habit expands. I was flossing all my teeth and my dentist and hygienist thought I was like their A plus patient. I was proud about that, and then I created a habit of doing push-ups and I changed how I’ve eaten and so on. It really comes down … So the Tiny Habits method is three hacks. Three hacks that work together. Number one, you scale the behavior way, way, way back. So, even rather than meditating for three minutes, that’s not small enough. It’s meditate for three breaths. You make it so small that even if you’re stressed or you’re super busy, you can still do the behavior. For me, the push-ups, I started at two push-ups, and flossing, one, two, so that’s number one. You hack … Like bring the behavior back.

Because one of the insights there was I already know how to do the big behaviors. I just need to make them automatic. That means I have to do them every day and if I’m gonna do them every day, if they’re really, really easy then my motivation swings. Our motivation goes up and down all the time. Then the drops in motivation won’t affect performance of the behavior. So, you’re really designing for consistency, and that was my insight. Creating habits shouldn’t … Traditionally it had been a matter of how do you motivate yourself? I saw you could go the complete different direction. Like no, you’re really designing for consistency. That’s what a habit is. Something you do consistently and relatively automatically.

So, you scale the behavior way, way back. Then you find where does this fit in my routine naturally? Flossing naturally fits after you brush. So you say, “After I brush, I will floss one tooth.” So what you’re doing is identifying the prompt for the new habit you want. So in Tiny Habits, we call it the anchor, because you’re looking for some really solid routine in your life you could attach the new behavior to. So you’re hacking the prompt by making a routine, a solid routine in your life. You turn that into another thing that reminds you. So for me, push-ups, I discovered that a really good prompt is after I pee. So after I pee, I do push-ups, and I’ve done this now for years. So far today, what is it, 10:30 my time. I’ve done about 25 push-ups total because I peed twice.

So that’s where it ends up fitting, and so I do that throughout the day, and then the third hack is the weirdest one, but it’s really important. You wire in the habit. You reinforce it. You make it take root in your brain by feeling a positive emotion while you’re doing the behavior or immediately after. So for example you floss one tooth, you look in the mirror and you smile and you say, “Good for you, BJ,” or, “Good for me,” or, you know, whatever makes you feel that positive emotion. That’s a hack, hacking your emotion, but what I think you’re doing … I’m not a neuroscientist so I don’t want to speak of it on those terms, but you are causing your brain to remember to do that behavior again in that situation and that context. So those three things together are the three hacks that make tiny habits super effective and frankly even fun to do.

Roger Dooley:     You know, BJ, I don’t usually personally test concepts from the guests on the podcast but once we had this scheduled, I decided to try out your push-up Tiny Habit.

BJ Fogg:             Good for you.

Roger Dooley:     I was never much of a push-up guy and probably had not done even one in years. So I started with one and managed to do that with maybe bad form, but after just a few weeks I’m up to seven. Did 10 this morning just for the fun of it, and I hadn’t hit my max.

BJ Fogg:             Good for you.

Roger Dooley:     I could have kept on going but I figured if I-

BJ Fogg:             Good for you.

Roger Dooley:     If I did it to exhaustion, that would be doing the wrong kind of reinforcement, that I’d associate struggle and pain with the activity, so …

BJ Fogg:             Good for you. Right on.

Roger Dooley:     Thanks. So it actually does work. Since you’ve trained so many people in Tiny Habits, what are a few other tiny habits in sort of different categories that you can think of?

BJ Fogg:             Well, one of my favorites, the one that I think everyone can benefit from, is first thing in the morning after your feet touch the floor as you’re getting out of bed, say this phrase. Say, “It’s going to be a great day.” Now, I know that sounds kind of “woo-woo” and strange and it’s like, “This guy from California who surfs and lives in Maui part-time,” but it turns out that across the world people who have done that have reported, “Oh my gosh, this just changes the trajectory of my day,” and so I think that’s why … Even if I don’t believe it, and I’ve given a Ted Talk on this, so I’ll just be brief.

Even if I don’t believe it … Like there’s mornings when you get up, it’s like, “Today’s gonna be hard,” or, “I have to do stuff today I don’t want to do.” I’ll still say, “Today’s gonna be a great day.” I’ll say it even if I don’t believe it, and it does actually help. I’ve not done controlled experiments on … That would be one. Another one could be as simple as filling up a water glass. So notice drinking a glass of water might be too big a behavior, but filling up a glass of water is a lot simpler, and it’s likely if you fill up the glass of water and you put it somewhere like on your work desk, you’re gonna drink it, and then the tiny habit after that is as soon as I drink the last bit of water, I refill my water glass. So you can use these two tiny habits to drink a lot more water during the day.

I have a tiny habit of setting out my little vitamins in this bowl in the morning. I don’t actually … Taking them is not part of the tiny habit because I don’t like taking vitamins and supplements. It’s too big a behavior. So if I just put them in a bowl and I put that on my work desk or if I’m traveling I put them in my pocket, and then through the day, I get them. Some people find a lot of success with the tiny habit of just putting on their walking or running shoes. So it’s not go out and run for 30 minutes or an hour, is they just simply put on their shoes and they find that most of the time then that cascades into them going out and walking or running.

So, there’s a big range of them, and the surprise to most people is one, it’s really easy. Like surprisingly easy, and two, certain types of tiny habits have a really big impact in your life, a surprisingly big impact, and that’s what you’re shooting for, I think really, if you’re trying to change your own life or help other people change theirs, is what’s this really, really simple thing that they want to do and they can do, and once they start doing it, it will have these ripple effects and help transform, really transform their life. So I’m writing a book on tiny habits now and some of the stories are in there about really surprising life transformations. Some of these I didn’t even know until I started getting in deep into writing the book and the people came out of the woodwork with these just amazing stories. It’s like, “Oh my gosh,” and it started with saying it’s gonna be a great day or started with doing two push-ups or flossing one tooth.

I say it was a weird accident because it wasn’t something that I was systematically studying in my research lab. It was just me goofing around personally and one thing led to another and here is this method and coaches who use it and I have a certification program and all that.

Roger Dooley:     Yep. So, BJ, some habits may not lend themselves to a tiny habit approach, like adopting a diet that will let you lose weight or something. Do you have any suggested approaches that you’ve found, science based approaches that you think work for that?

BJ Fogg:             Yes I do. Actually you can use tiny habits in part to do that kind of thing. Let’s take lose weight. The best way to do that, of course, is by changing how you eat. It’s not really exercise, it’s eating. So, what you would do … So I have this model that I call “swarm of behaviors.” Again, people listening to this won’t see it, but it’s a model that … Imagine a cloud. You have the aspiration or outcome that you want. So that could be “lose weight.” That’s an aspiration, or it could be “lose 30 pounds.” That’s the outcome. Either one, you start with that, and then you think, “What behaviors can take me to that aspiration or outcome?” Oh, I could stop drinking soda. I could drink a big glass of water before every meal. I could eat steamed spinach for breakfast. I could pack my own lunch to work and so on.

So you come up with a wide range of behaviors and then you pick among them, and I have a method for that that we won’t get into, but that model, it’s a really simple model, but what it helps show is there’s a difference between the outcome or aspiration. That’s like lose weight or lose 30 pounds, and specific behaviors that can get you there. You can’t design directly for the aspiration or outcomes. That’s why I put it up in the cloud. You can’t design directly for that. You can design for specific behaviors, and guess what? There’s not one magical behavior that leads to weight loss. There are hundreds of options, and what you should pick is an option that you want to do. Like, “Oh my gosh, I actually do like cauliflower,” so having cauliflower as a snack, I want to do that. I can do that, and you can build a tiny habit around eating cauliflower as a snack.

Or, a tiny habit that I did … Well, I actually did the cauliflower one because I do love cauliflower, or a tiny habit … One of the behaviors is don’t eat bread at restaurants. Don’t eat chips at restaurants, because, you know, back in the day when I did that, man, the bread would come. I was hungry. I’d be eating it, eating it, or the chips and salsa. So I said, “Okay, how can I stop that?” I created this tiny habit of when the server comes over and offers bread, the tiny behavior is to say, “No bread, please.” Or, “Nope, no chips today.” So that little … what does it take, three seconds? Five seconds? Led to me not eating bread at restaurants, or chips, because they weren’t on the table anymore. So there are ways-

Roger Dooley:     Right, and had they been sitting on the table in front of you, you might have resisted for a minute or two but eventually given in.

BJ Fogg:             Oh yeah. Especially the chips. I love salty snacks. I love salty snacks, and just knowing that about myself and knowing if the bread’s there and I’m hungry, I’m eventually maybe gonna give in and so you just say … So anyway, the takeaway here is there is a systematic way to design for behavior change, and that’s what behavior design is. It’s a system. It’s a set of models, it’s a set of methods. They work together. You can use them systematically to transform your life and that has nothing really to do with technology.

Now if you’re creating a product or service, you can still use the same system, but behavior design is … That’s why when sometimes people say, “Behavior design is a new name for persuasive technology,” no, not at all, because it has nothing to do with technology. It’s a systematic way to understand behavior and design for behavior.

Roger Dooley:     Great. Well that’s probably pretty good place to wrap up, BJ. Let me remind our audience that we are speaking with BJ Fogg, head of the behavior design lab at Stanford, author of Persuasive Technology and creator of the Fogg Behavior Model. BJ, how can people find you and your work online?

BJ Fogg:             Probably two places. BJFogg.com, a launch pad. I have too many websites out there, but you go there and that’s probably where you can find most of them, and then TinyHabits.com. If you want to dive into the Tiny Habits method and learn how to hack your life, improve your life quickly and easily.

Roger Dooley:     Great. Well, we will link to those places and to any other resources we spoke about on the show notes page at RogerDooley.com/podcast, and we’ll have a text version of our conversation there too. BJ, thanks for being on the show.

BJ Fogg:             Roger, thanks for having me.

Thank you for tuning into this episode of Brainfluence. To find more episodes like this one, and to access all of Roger’s online writing and resources, the best starting point is RogerDooley.com.

And remember, Roger’s new book Friction is now available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and book sellers everywhere. Bestselling author Dan Pink calls it, “An important read,” and Wharton Professor Dr. Joana Berger said, “You’ll understand Friction’s power and how to harness it.”

For more information or for links to Amazon and other sellers, go to rogerdooley.com/friction.