Quantum Marketing with Mastercard CMO Raja Rajamannar

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Now, here’s Roger.

Roger Dooley:     Welcome to Brainfluence, I’m Roger Dooley. Today’s guest is not only recognized as one of the world’s top marketers, he’s in a better position to spot trends and anticipate change than just about anyone else. Raja Rajamannar is chief in marketing and communications officer for MasterCard, and president of the company’s healthcare business. He’s also president of the World Federation of Advertisers. Raja’s been named one of the industry’s most tech savvy CMOs by Adweek. One of the world’s five most influential CMOs by Forbes, and one of the world’s 10 most innovative CMOs by Business Insider, and global marketer of the year by the World Federation of Advertisers. That is quite a set of credentials.

Welcome to the show, Raja.

Raja Rajamannar:        Thank you for having me, Roger. Absolute pleasure to be here.

Roger Dooley:     Yeah. So Raja, your new book is Quantum Marketing, which is really interesting. It is a very forward-looking book, a sort of marketing futurist book, but really for the very near future, in some cases.

So it’s a great read. You must have mastered a sort of a God’s eye view of what’s going on in the world of marketing, because you can see so many of the world’s transactions sort of passing by you. Was that a key source of insights as you were working on this book?

Raja Rajamannar:        I would not say it’s a key source of insights, but it is much more a validation of some of the hypothesis that I had. When I look at the whole field of marketing, interestingly, if suddenly it dawned upon me having spent about 36 years in this field, that marketing has been evolving constantly since antiquity, and it was going through various phases, and each era of paradigm of marketing was being kickstarted by two technologies almost at a time, like for example, right now I say that we are at the tail end of the fourth paradigm, and fourth paradigm came about by the digital and social platforms really taking root. The third paradigm came because of internet and data analytics. Now, as I look forward, because we are a technology company and I’m closely involved in a number of technologies, and being a geek and a nerd myself on the technology front, I started looking at all the technologies, which are coming at us and what could be potentially the impact they can have on the lives of people and organizations, and therefore impacts marketing.

And I felt pretty overwhelmed initially when I set my bar. The preceding paradigms were powered by two technologies, typically. Now, we are at the verge of having two dozen technologies, like artificial intelligence, augmented reality, virtual reality, wearables, autonomous cars, 3d printing, drones, the list goes on, blockchains and so on. So I said, what is the impact of this? And so many technologies are bound to disrupt marketing in an unprecedented way. So that was the Genesis. And then I started sort of putting together what kind of scenarios could be there. What is the exact impact that’s likely to be off each one of these different technologies, and marketing, how do we reinvent the field, the craft. So as marketers, if you have to survive and thrive in this future paradigm, you need to really reimagine because current marketing is just not going to work.

And just like at the world of physics, when classical physics failed, quantum physics came in. So that was the inspiration for me to say, when classical marketing or traditional marketing is going to fail, it’s already beginning to fail big time. Quantum marketing is the way to go. So this was the whole genesis. And interestingly, both COVID as well as some of the trends and changes that we are seeing in the consumer hybrids and organizational habits, actually is validating the hypothesis that I have in this book. So that was how the entire book came about and gave me a lot of confidence that what I was writing actually made sense, in addition to my peers telling me that it’s a great book and they found the content extremely inspiring, and also tangible enough for them to use it as a playbook.

Roger Dooley:     And I guess just as Newtonian physics was pretty simple compared to quantum physics, it seems like quantum marketing is quite a bit more complex, involves a lot more technology than classical marketing. You make a point about the level of trust in marketing currently Raja, described through the sort of the current situation.

Raja Rajamannar:        So current situation, unfortunately, from a marketing perspective is not great. I would say that marketing is in some sort of existential crisis. Many companies have done away with the roles of CMOs, and these are not some obscured industrial companies, but they are hardcore fronted consumer companies, right? You have got the likes of Coca-Cola, which has done away with the role of CMO for a couple of years before bringing them in. But you have got companies like J and J, Johnson and Johnson. You have got companies like Hershey’s, Kraft. They’ve all done away with that role, which is very scary on the one hand, on the other hand, surveys that have been done by the likes of McKinsey’s have shown that CEOs, a great percentage, more than 75% of CEOs, say that they have no confidence in their marketing departments. They feel that their marketing departments do not have what it takes to drive the business forward.

That is really scary. And the result is evident. If you look at classical marketing, we would say that marketing has four P’s. Product, price, place, and promotion. Today, products, many companies, they are not managed by marketing. There is somebody called chief product officer, or somebody else who manages products. Pricing is not done by marketing. Distribution, not a place or logistics is not done by marketing. All promotions are also not done by marketing. Part of the promotions are done by marketing.

So of the four P’s of marketing, nearly three and a half P’s are not handled by marketing, you wonder why. And also you ask, then what exactly is marketing doing in this companies? So there is a crisis of confidence as far as marketing is concerned. That’s very evident. And I keep speaking with my peers from across various companies that budgets are getting substantially chopped year after year, particularly with the pandemic it’s even more pronounced. And the function is being fragmented and distributed to areas outside of marketing.

Roger Dooley:     Is that a mistake? I mean, because we see new titles evolving like chief experience officer and titles like that, but is it a mistake to let that fragmentation happen, Raja?

Raja Rajamannar:        I absolutely think it is. See, if you look at marketing, firstly, if you look at the classical definition, there is a reason why, outside of Phillip, and so, they have formulated an entire framework, which gives a holistic approach to the consumer. And I think that’s really important, even today, even tomorrow it’s going to be critical. But the problem is, when the third paradigm started with the data and technology, marketers could not keep pace with them. Many of the marketers have come from the qualitative side of the house. They didn’t have too much of comfort around technology or around data. So therefore they sort of got caught a little bit like deer in headlights. Then came a new breed of folks, outside of marketing, who are doing lots of data analytics, data scientists, call it whatever. On the one hand, I think you’ve got technology led folks, and they literally took away the agenda, and marketers were still catching up, and then comes to mobile and then social media, a revolution.

And that’s why marketers are really caught where they are, lagging substantially behind where the rest of the technology is. If you see the bulk of the funding for data comes from marketers, but the data agenda is not driven by marketers. It’s very fascinating, right? Bulk of the technology stuff that marketing is deploying, is literally dictated or mandated or controlled by folks outside of marketing, and marketers are motor recipients of those technology solutions. And they don’t understand enough to be able to challenge or to assert themselves, et cetera. The whole idea is, on this marketers learn and get comfortable with the technology and data they are going to be totally irrelevant. And that’s a big worry that I have.

Roger Dooley:     Well, I’ve been using this, some other indicators of the lack of trust in marketing for years and talking about neuro-marketing because one of the objectives of neuro marketers or using consumer neuroscience technologies, is to sort of get beneath the, what people say, and understand what they’re really thinking, what they really like, what they’re going to do, to the extent you can predict the future with any technology.

But one thing I also see with these new technologies coming in, there’s a huge potential for disruption. I mean, if we look at traditional industries that have been disrupted, like the taxi industry by Uber, for example. If Uber, if Travis Kalanick had not come along and founded Uber, probably within six months or a year, somebody else would’ve founded something very similar because it was evident eventually that mobile technology was going to enable a revolution in that process.

It was just that one person saw it first and jumped on it. And then a few others did, but later the incumbents in the industry pretty much got blindsided by this. And I think that what you’re sort of suggesting with these various technologies in your book, Raja, is that the same thing could happen to any industry, potentially where suddenly these technologies are going to change the way customers interact with a brand, interact with a company. And if someone else is much more adept at doing that, it could really shake up the hierarchy in any industry.

Raja Rajamannar:        Okay. I’ll just give you a couple of very tangible examples, Roger. So you look at smart speakers. Smart speakers are taking root pretty quickly. More than 25% of households in the United States, United Kingdom, Germany, Japan, they already have smart speakers. Now, when there is a smart speaker in the household, let’s look at the consumer interaction. So as a consumer I’d say, “Hey Alexa, or, Hey, Google, I’m looking for some diapers.” Immediately, from this search all the way to the purchase, Alexa facilitates and influences my choice. So what Alexa will say, “Okay. You’re looking for diapers, here is Pampers.” Now, what consumers have said, is that 70% plus of the times, the recommendation made by Alexa, they will go for it. They will go with that particular recommendation, which means now the entire purchase funnel, you got a new influencer or an intermediary, called Alexa, which did not exist in the same way before smart speakers existed, number one.

So as a brand, you have to first convince Alexa that you have to be quoted. So even before you market to the consumer, you have to now start marketing to the intermediary, just to get onto the list. It’s like search engine optimization or search engine marketing, but on a very different level, in a different ecosystem. And the ecosystem is not there yet.

Second, as a brand, suppose if you were to look on the internet search, I can see the visuals. I can showcase by brand. For example, somebody’s looking for a credit card, MasterCard is very prominently there, if the logo is visible, etc. That’s how we show our presence and convey the right message to the consumers.

Now what happens in smart speakers, there is no visual real estate where you can show your brand logo. So how do you show up as a brand when there is no visual real estate? So brands have to take in terms of sonic branding, having a brand identity in a sound format, and that requires a total different approach. And you cannot just have that sonic brand only for the smart speakers, because the recognition of that sonic logo would take years, unless you are doing it very prolific all over the place, across not smart speaker’s only, but every touch point, you cannot accomplish that recognition and association for that sonic brand with your brand appropriately and accurately. So marketers have to start thinking along these lines.

Roger Dooley:     You’ve set me up here for something, Raja. MasterCard, not too long ago, set up its own sonic brand, which is kind of interesting because, clearly, you can’t do a scent branding just because of your primary businesses, I don’t think you can anyway. Maybe a scented cards at some point, but who uses cards even these days very much, but sonic branding is something that we’re seeing more of now. Actually, I just saw that Amex did establish a scent brand for its centurion lounges, it’s high-end airport lounges, which makes a lot of sense, because there you do have the consumer in a controlled environment where you can do that sort of branding.

But I actually recorded a little bit of a MasterCard’s brand here, the quality won’t be great, I’m going to play this on my iPad, but I’m just going to play just a little clip here for folks so they can hear what it sounds like. And I’d like to hear you explain how this sonic brand originated and what factors you took into account.

Raja Rajamannar:        Okay.

Roger Dooley:     (Music playing).

First of all, I like that it’s longer than some. It’s not like the phone companies that just have maybe three or four notes or the Intel boot-up sound. But then again, it’s not nearly as complex as United’s Rhapsody in blue, and it seems kind of uplifting and contemporary. Tell me how the concept originated. You’ve already explained why a sonic brand is important in 2021. How did you approach that whole process designing it?

Raja Rajamannar:        Yeah. So in fact, it was a very interesting journey, right? So we said, let’s look at all the sonic brands that are out there, so we can take the best lessons and make it our playbook. What was surprised was, many, many, many brands have been playing all the way from jingles a few decades back, to the Intel that you mentioned, which has got the sonic signature at the end of every one their ads, You’ve got NBC, you’ve got McDonald’s, you’ve got some other brands that are heavily into sonic branding in some sense. But what I felt was that none of them really had as complex and comprehensive, an architecture for their sonic brand as they themselves have for their visual brand. So I said, if visual brand, you do so much of funnel stuff, why would you not really think about it the same way for the sonic brand?

That’s an offer on a course and we said there’s not precedent that we can rely on. So we have to create our own playbook. So that’s how we started. So after doing a lot of research, working with musicians, musicologists, studios, record albums, so many sound experts, we eventually came to the conclusion that we need to have a multi-layered strategy.

The first layer, and it’s at the core of everything, is a 30 second melody, a melody that has to be pleasant, obviously. A melody that has to be neutral, which means it should not be so overpowering in any direction that it drowns any situation. It should be actively supporting situations. We don’t want the brand by itself to be dominating any scenario. It should be supporting and blending every scenario that we want to project, it has to be absolutely adaptable to different countries and cultures because we are present in 110 countries.

So the brand melody should feel native in Dubai, or in Beijing, or in Buenos Aires, whichever part of the world it is, across the world it should feel native. It should be highly versatile in the sense that whether we are sponsoring a football match or a soccer match, which is very noisy, loud, energetic, or we are showing a romantic evening dinner, which when a couple, which is very soft and soothing and it’s very different, our brand has to be versatile enough to categorize all the situations. So I said, let’s come up with a melody like this. It took us two years to come up with this kind of a melody. Once we had it, that was the first layer. That layer we are embedding now into every single one of our advertisements, our videos, the music on hold when somebody calls the MasterCard office, the ringtones for MasterCard employees on their phones.

It’s all the sonic melody and they’re rendered in many, many, many different formats and genres, but it’s unmistakably the MasterCard melody. The second layer that we have is what we call as a sonic signature. So if you look at intel ads at the end of their ads, they have got those six notes or five notes, whatever the notes are. So it’s an equivalent of it.

So this is three seconds for MasterCard, all on ads and events and with a sonic signature. The third layer is what we call as our acceptance sound. Acceptance sound is, every time you use your MasterCard for a transaction at a shop using the point of sale terminal, or you use your digital devices at home. When the transaction goes through successfully, you’ll hear a sound. That sound is 1.3 seconds.

So the 1.3 seconds is a subset of the three-second sonic signature, which is a subset of the 30 second melody. They’re all linked. And when you, each one, actually brings about the memory of the other one, the main melody itself. So we started about now less than 18 months, or 19 months back, and already our sonic acceptance sound is embedded in 58 million points of interaction around the world. And we’re getting a humongous amount of traction. The brand is going up phenomenally well. We have now become a top 10 brand in the world, InterBrand has rated us as one of the fastest growing brands. And we have also been rated as the world’s best sonic brand at this point in time. So that’s the kind of journey that we have been on. We are unveiling a few more layers, in fact, the next layer, which is not yet here, but hopefully it will become a reality somewhere in the third quarter of this year, which is we are releasing a full music album with about 11 songs.

And each one of these will have a subtle infusion of the MasterCard melody, but each song is totally different from everyone else. It’s truly global. And the album is called Priceless. So this is what we are going to launch. The whole idea is to popularize the melody and make sure that people start recognizing the melody, then associate it with MasterCard. And eventually that is a clear attribution to MasterCard when they hear that melody, that’s a journey that we are on.

Roger Dooley:     That’s a pretty amazing story. And did that melody get stuck in your head or is it stuck in your head now, Raja?

Raja Rajamannar:        Oh, you bet. Not only in my head, in the heads off everyone around me.

Roger Dooley:     No doubt, you probably heard it far more times than most consumers. So, we went down to kind of an interesting rabbit hole there with the sonic brand, but what are some of the other technologies like augmented and virtual reality? How are those going to change he marketing experience?

Raja Rajamannar:        Quite a lot, actually. And in fact, some of these got accelerated thanks to COVID. For example, like they talk about virtual reality for a minute, right? So when you’re looking at a lot of conferences, events, concerts, sporting events, all these getting canceled because of COVID, there has been a spurt of innovation, as far as virtual reality and augmented reality are concerned. Many people are now streaming content to their home and watching, but watching it in two dimensions is not the same as having an immersive experience. So virtual reality-based programming content is actually already beginning to come. Now, right now, the quality is still not really great, right? It’s a little bit grainy and you’ve got to wear that thick, heavy headset on your face, which is not very elegant but I have also seen prototypes of very sleek glasses, which you’ll wear, it doesn’t feel like you’re wearing a huge virtual reality set, but it actually gives you an immersive experience.

It’s both virtual reality and augmented reality. Now, I have one simple example I’ll gave you how people are trying to force fit a conference into the virtual environment, but today in two dimensions, right? Many of the conferences today, they show a nice facade, you’ll go there, and then the door opens. All this happening on your computer screen or iPad screen. And then they show your meeting rooms here. This is the auditorium. These are where the trade show is happening. These are booths, and so on and so forth, and you can go. So it’s nothing but a visual organization in 2d of what you would normally see in 3d. But if you make this truly 3d with the help of this virtual reality glasses, I can bet you, it is going to dramatically, exponentially increase in terms of adoption and prevalence.

And I think the need for physical conferences and events will come down pretty dramatically. Just to give you an example, MasterCard, even with the two dimensional presentation that we have got as of today, where we try to mimic 3d, but in 2d format, we have done more than 400 different events already, in the second half of last year, which is probably more than what we would have done cumulatively in any given year for the full year in, or the called physical world, and the attendance has been a multiple X times. I cannot tell you the exact numbers, but multiple times was the number of audiences that actually came in and experienced our seminars and conferences, our summits, call it whatever, our events, then what would have happened in the physical word. So this is going to change. So now, marketers have to start thinking about a very different kind of approach.

How do they, for example, if you’re in the B2B world, how do you showcase everything in that virtual reality? Secondly, if you’re into sponsorships today, and so for example, we sponsor UFA Champion’s League.

So in the auditorium, there is an immersive experience. And then you put your perimeter boards, and your show ads, and all that stuff. But in a virtual reality situation, you cannot show a two dimensional ad. I need to not think about how I’m going to give immersive advertisements in an immersive environment when people are at home and virtually experiencing it. That’s going to require a complete new architecture. It requires a new ecosystem, and it’s going to be pretty fascinating. That’s just one example of how virtual reality is going to be pretty dramatically impacting our lives, and our augmented reality equally. I don’t know if you have seen the brilliant example that was given by Google, where they show for Google maps, you’re walking on this street, you are looking at the camera of the phone, of the screen of the phone.

So on the screen, you can see the street that is ahead of you. But the interesting thing is they have overlaid augmented reality on this, where it shows, okay, this is where the shop is. This is where you take the turn, et cetera, in a very realistic kind of a fashion. Now, we were thinking, how do you then take it into the world of marketing and promotions as a simple example?

So if I’m giving some special discounts to MasterCard customers in their shop which is 20 shops away from you. Now, standing here, you don’t know that shop exists because unless you are in direct line of sight, you cannot see. And when you’re on the street and when shops are all lined next to each other you just cannot see beyond a point. So you can see it, here are the shops that are ahead of me, 35 shops ahead there is a special offer, click on it, you get the content, you just go there and you can actually experience that as one simple kind of a thing.

Meaning, drawing attention and letting people know on a location-based matter that here is an offer for you that you can avail of, using augmented reality, just one tiny example, but then you can keep taking it to layer upon layer. And that’s what we’ve actually been thinking about and we have been doing a few tests around, and the consumer’s response, typically for all of these, is astoundingly positive. And it gives you jump off some multiples, in terms of their engagement and in terms of availing of those offers and promotions as an example.

Roger Dooley:     So Raja, how do you take some of the friction out of, say the AR process, where there’s a brand of wine from Australia that has AR labels. You can point your phone at it with their app and the characters, it’s 19 crimes is the brand, I believe. The characters will animate and tell you something about the story behind the name of that wine. But I would guess probably not one customer in a thousand actually does that because you got to pull out your phone, you got to have the app on it, or even a generic AR app, I suppose, but you have to, it seems like a lot of effort to go through. Where’s that going to go? How is this going to become effortless for the consumer so that if you do have some kind of an AR offering as a brand, it’s evident to the consumer without them having to say, Oh, I need to check my AR version of this, of the world.

Raja Rajamannar:        I think you said it absolutely spot on, which is, when you’re giving an experience to consumer, it’s supposed to augment that experience, which means it has to be intuitive, seamless, interesting, engaging, effortless, totally frictionless, right? Now we had at the beginning of this journey, but already I have seen some apps, take an example of IKEA, now IKEA has launched an AR app where you look at one of their items and then you come into your home and you’ll see where you want to drop that. So that picture gets dropped to the physical reality of your room, and it gives you a fairly decent idea and that’s pretty fascinating, right? And consumers appreciate it because otherwise you’re leaving it to their imagination to see how the furniture will fit at all, and how the contrast and the matching and everything looks like, is the effect good or bad?

You’re taking the guesswork out by brilliant deployment of this augmented reality app. IKEA has already started. There are other companies I have seen in different areas. Like for example, when you look at machines being repaired or people being trained on how the machines work, and this is my first B2B and customer service side, actually the AR can give so much amount of interactive, real time guidance to the people who are actually working on it, it’s incredible.

So the point is that technology of AR is just about coming in. Companies have started slowly testing. They’re dipping their toes in the water and seeing how things are, but I can tell you that at least I have seen the Ikea experience, and based on that itself I had actually bought something from their catalog. It’s purely based on the experience, right? And to me, if it happens, I can clearly see that it happens for other people too.

And this is going to be a tsunami as we go into the future, not distant future, but near future. An augmented reality is going to be here. Now, the key thing is, if you are a marketer, you need to understand what is augmented reality? How does the technology work? What are the possibilities that you have? What kind of a capability ecosystem you have to build within your own teams or within your own IT stack, and so on.

All that requires a lot of thinking. And in fact, that’s precisely what I’ve been trying to do in the book is, take each technology that’s coming on, say what it is, demystify, simplify the whole thing and say, this is what this technology cutting off all the jargon and the thing. Then what is the implication on consumers’ lives? And what is the implication for marketers and how should marketers think about it and be prepared? So it’s almost like a playbook, now, irrespective of if the people read this book or not, the reality is, it’s time that they upped their game in the context of these technologies and data capabilities that are coming at us fast and furious, and have a new playbook ready. And that playbook is what I call, quantum marketing.

Roger Dooley:     How does this apply to smaller businesses and entrepreneurial ventures, Raja? So I can imagine even people at big brands saying, wow, we don’t have the budget for all this stuff. How are we going to concentrate on 10 different technologies and so on, but it’s even more daunting for a small business. Are there going to be tools emerging that will let smaller companies address these needs without having to do a lot of internal development or have high level of expertise that like, they’re not going to be able to have a data scientist on their staff, how’s that going to evolve, do you think?

Raja Rajamannar:        So, in fact, this is also one interesting, a big topic that I have touched upon in the book. The key thing is, technology and data are actually the big levelers. They level the playing field pretty substantially, right? Now in the past, if you have to do something on technology, you need to be a big company with big budget, big infrastructure, big teams, and so on. But now that everything is in the cloud, there are services that are available on a pay as you go basis, starting from artificial intelligence, all the way to augmented reality, and every other thing in between, blockchains and so on. So for a very little amount that you outlay, you can actually have access to these technologies. That’s the beauty of how technologies are scaling and getting democratized. So you don’t have to be a giant to be able to play with this.

You are a small entity, you can effectively jump on to the bandwagon, number one. Number two, data likewise, used to be the provocative of companies which have massive customer basis and so on. But today, data insights and lot of data is also available permission-based that you can access, even if you don’t have those databases in house with you. So there are services that provide you what you need to make sure as a marketer, is that the data that you’re actually buying or accessing is permission-based because you have to be respectful as a marketer, and don’t play around with people’s privacy.

You have responsibility for using somebody’s data, you’d be responsible for their privacy and be respectful of that. So the point I’m trying to make is both the data and the technologies that are coming, these are the two big democratizing agents for the field of marketing, in particular, and for industries in general, and the outlay doesn’t have to be big, and in fact, particularly for example, in one of the chapters, I remember from the top of my mind, which is when I talk about artificial intelligence, it might seem like a big deal, but for a very small outlay of a few thousand dollars, you can actually get an artificial intelligence pilot kicked off and see what the effect is and how dramatic changes can be there, applied either for your marketing campaigns or for your analysis of some data that you want to see, to get to the right insights after design promotions, whatever.

It’s going to be a fun time and space for marketers to be in at this point in time. And to regain that gravitas, that stature and a the seat at the table, leveraging these technologies, leveraging these new things that are coming at us.

Roger Dooley:     Great. Well, I think that’s a very uplifting note to wrap up on here, Raja, it’s going to be an exciting time for marketers and perhaps new levels of respect, or at least some respect from their peers and their superiors, their CEO.

So Raja, how can people find you and your ideas online?

Raja Rajamannar:        So I think there are three ways they can reach me. One of course is Twitter. The handle is @RajaRajamannar. That’s quite a tongue twister, I know, but hopefully they’ll be able to reach it, @RajaRajamannara. They can reach me on LinkedIn, which is also the same name, Raja Rajamannar.

And I’m also having a website that I’m creating. It has not yet launched because my book is coming on the 9th of February. So it’ll go live soon after that, which is [email protected]. The website is quantumarketing.com. And my email address will be [email protected].

Roger Dooley:     Great, well, we will link to all of those places where you won’t have to spell. You can just click the link on the show notes page at rogerdooley.com/podcast. We will have text, audio, and video versions of this conversation there as well.

Raja, thanks so much for being on the show. I’m excited by your message. It’s a good time to be a marketer.

Raja Rajamannar:        I know, it is. And thank you so much, Roger, and if I can also just put in one plug. The book is available on Amazon and a whole bunch of other online retailers for pre-order. So if anyone wants, they can go to amazon.com, look for Quantum Marketing by Raja Rajamannar, and they will find it and hopefully they will enjoy reading it. But Roger, thank you so much for having me on your podcast, always a pleasure, and particularly to talk to somebody who has been in neuro marketing before, which is one of my passion areas. So wonderful chatting with you and look forward to doing it again sometime in the near future.

Roger Dooley:     Well, I hope so, because we didn’t get into that at all. I was going to, if time permitted, get into some neuro marketing topics, in your book, you talk about using behavioral science, you mentioned. And so we definitely have some fodder for another conversation, Raja, thanks again.

Raja Rajamannar:        I would welcome that. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. And take care and please stay safe.

Thank you for tuning into this episode of Brainfluence. To find more episodes like this one, and to access all of Roger’s online writing and resources, the best starting point is RogerDooley.com.

And remember, Roger’s new book, Friction, is now available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and book sellers everywhere. Bestselling author Dan Pink calls it, “An important read,” and Wharton Professor Dr. Joana Berger said, “You’ll understand Friction’s power and how to harness it.”

For more information or for links to Amazon and other sellers, go to RogerDooley.com/Friction.